Re: The story so far.. My Honda CBR 250R

Sir, that image in which the level appears to be higher is the image which was taken today, after 95kms. I don't have a paddock here at hometown so the bike might not be held in the same position.
Yes i will be changing the oil before 50kms. Thank you sir

Re: The story so far.. My Honda CBR 250R

Hi psr sir,

My humble request for you to post your experiences in restoring your fully flooded and submerged bike/car.

For some of us, it will be a valuable guide, considering recent floodings.

Sorry to have hijacked this thread...

Regards,
Ganesh

Re: The story so far.. My Honda CBR 250R

This is gross OT and so will keep it simple and brief.
Battery was disconnected before water level rose above 1 foot, after flooding,engine oil was drained, petrol tank was emptied, plugs were removed and engine cranked to flush out water from upper cylinder area,and Air Filter changed...after this everything put back and new oil, oil filter changed with fresh petrol, Carb and throttle body cleaned....after running 100 Kms , oil and filter changed with new ones.

Re: The story so far.. My Honda CBR 250R

Hi,

i would like to personally thank all the readers and riders for participating in qualitative discussions; posting their queries and troubleshooting in a manner which is in conformity of the broad idea behind starting this thread i.e. knowledge sharing. I feel we all are now collectively taking this experience and ownership thread of a mere OCMD rider and transforming it to something much more... thank you once again!

WARNING: This is going to be a long one.. so if you are here for a quicky.. i suggest better to look somewhere else...


GENERAL HDEO OIL SERVICE & MAJOR OVERHAUL - THROTTLE BODY CLEANING:

As mentioned in my earlier post, since the last oil change my bike had clocked around 3,322 kms. The engine vibrations and gear shifts slowly becoming notchy was now more prominent so it was clear that going forward with next round of road to recovery process was imperative. So without taking things further, an appointment was fixed with my service centre and i landed up there @9:00 am sharp. Thanks to heavy showers in this part of the country, once again my bike was completely splattered with muck. But this time, i simply had enough and decided to follow the correct way of doing things: the vehicle was first sent for a proper wash. The idea is when you keep things clean, it provides a good platform for the mechanic at the workshop to work at while keeping dust and dirt away from the innards of the engine and other components plus, as an owner: one feels really great..

Regardless, once the vehicle was cleaned and dried using compressed air the mechanic then put my CBR 250R on paddock stand and started with the usual process of draining the engine oil and removing the engine oil filter from the designated place. Though not clear in the pic below, but on a closer inspection, personally i found the Yamaha FZ/Byson engine oil filter to be relatively in good shape. The engine oil (Shell Advanced ultra motorcycle based 10W 40) drained from my engine had a very minute burning smell but way better than the first round of oil change done with the same oil almost a year and half back. The mechanic then proceeded with changing the old one with a fresh Yamaha FZ oil filter and plonked it back into the bay but not before pre-lubing it slightly with fresh engine oil.





Pic 1 & 2: The old Yamaha FZ filter was found to relatively in a good shape. New FZ oil filter being installed after pre-lubing it with fresh engine oil.

As mentioned in my earlier post, in order to accelerate the process of clean up of the engine internals, this time i went for Shell Rimula R4 HDEO oil. For some weird reason the pouring funnel usually used by the SVC guys for filling up oil in respective bikes went missing from the SVC. My mechanic ran from pillar to post to find it till he gave up and quickly fabricated an aluminium sheet for pouring Rimula R4 oil into my CBR's engine. Since, fresh engine oil filter was installed, we put in engine oil in quantity of 1.5 ltrs as recommended by the service/shop manual.







Pic 3, 4 & 5: Shell Rimula R4 HDEO engine oil being poured in my Honda CBR 250R's engine as a part of engine oil treatment process.

After the engine oil was filled and all the things were put back on, we then started my CBR and let it run for about 2 - 3 mins in order to let the oil flow across all the nooks and crannies inside the engine in order to see if any oil weeping is found in the process. Once, everything was okayed by us we than proceeded with the next task. I now had covered around 10,000+ kms since the last air filter change and based on my previous ownership experience with Yamaha FZ, i was pretty sure that by now thanks to the extremely dusty environment of India, this pleated paper element air filter most likely had gone kaput. Honda as per the shop manual usually recommends air filter to be replaced @16,000 kms approx (under ideal conditions). However, we all know that India is definitely not the region where ideal conditions are ever present. So we then went on with the process of removing the air filter from the air box (accessible by taking out the rider seat).

Once, the air filter was removed from the box, the dirt deposition on it confirmed my suspicion that it was time for replacement. So a new pleated paper element (OEM) air filter was picked up from the Honda SVC spares section and it was installed back into the airbox compartment.

IMPORTANT: For newbies and for general riders, as per Honda's recommendation, the OEM pleated paper filter cannot be cleaned by blowing compressed air on it. It is simply use and throw: so please...for any of those riders who are thinking of going for the cheaper route in order to save a few bucks, know this compressed air treatment will simply not work on the OEM filter for CBR 250R.







Pic 6, 7 & 8: Comparo pic between the old filter and the new one (both OEM). Cost of a new Honda paper element air filter.

Once, the basic service along with air filter change was completed we then moved on addressing the old unresolved issue of rear brake calliper jamming. The mechanic first dis-assembled the rear brake calliper and the floating assembly till we were able to access the troubled spot. The retainer rubber dust seal was removed and the floating pin holding area was cleaned using strong brake cleaning solvent till all the rust and gunk came out. The whole thing was then again greased from a fresh tub (i managed to chew the brain of the SVC manager till he finally relented and handed over a fresh-sealed tub of grease from the SVC warehouse to the mechanic ). Once, everything was put back in, the rear brakes were tested and this time everything was found to be working properly.





Pic 9 & 10: Rear brake calliper assembly dismantled, properly serviced and put back on. Note the fresh grease which i managed to procure right from the SVC

Once we were done with the primary tasks, it was time to take on the whopper! As mentioned in an earlier post on this thread (link: http://www.xbhp.com/talkies/general-...ml#post1156048) i have been procrastinating the throttle body cleanup work due to the headache of removing everything just to access the darn thing! But now that my CBR had crossed 30,000+ kms since, the day i picked it up from the previous owner, deep inside i knew that i can't keep on postponing this forever. So when i told my mechanic about the task in hand, he first gave me the puzzled look and expressed his reluctance stating the reason, "saar i don't think this is required as none of the CBRs i have worked on, has ever done a throttle body cleaning!". I smiled and replied, "there is always a first time!! So get on with it and thou shall be rewarded handsomely.."

Once, he got a clear picture that there is no way of bluffing his way out on this one, we started the process of dis-assembling the CBR's petrol tank from the chassis. As shown in the pics below, once the screws are unbolted from the given points, the mechanic then accesses the lower part of the petrol tank in order to remove the connections, including the fuel feeding line to the injector.





Pic 11 & 12: The CBR's petrol tank getting removed from the chassis. Note the fuel feeding line getting removed from the tank.

Since, this was a first time for me and the mechanic, after studying the wirings and the route of access to the throttle body, it was clear that there is no way on earth we can make it to the throttle body without removing the whole airbox. Oh God Almighty, this is going to take a while!! Anyways, the mechanic along with his helper then started removing the airbox by unbolting the holding screws. While the mechanic was at it, i asked his helper to also disconnect the battery: both +ve and -ve leads from the battery terminal since, the throttle body has an electronic TPS (Throttle Position Sensor), i didn't want to witness any random error codes flashing on the MID console and i would be intentionally fiddling around with the throttle body really soon. Once, the airbox was removed, we then disconnected the throttle cable A & B and wallah! i got the first glimpse of the throttle body sitting right in the centre of my bike's universe!







Pic 13, 14 & 15: Airbox getting removed while the mechanic's assistant removed the +ve & -ve connections from the given terminals of the battery. Note the carbon built up on the intake side of the throttle body.

The pics above will give all the readers a clear understanding that the throttle body has raked in quite a lot of soot/carbon deposit since, the last 30,000+ kms of operation. We then removed the whole throttle body assembly from the engine in order to inspect both the inlet and the outlet side of the throttle body. On the engine side as the pics show below, the carbon built up is pretty prevalent in the lower part of the butterfly valve. On the butterfly valve, it is visibly wet and so are the carbon deposits. If i am correct this is one of the first set of pictures confirming the existence of soot/carbon built up on a throttle body of a Honda CBR 250R not just in India but possibly worldwide. Hopefully, this post will end up helping a lot of riders in not just in India but in other countries and continents as well: who wish to understand the what, how and why's related to the process.





Pic 16 & 17: Throttle body removed from Honda CBR 250R's engine. Note the butterfly valve on the side facing the intake ports of the CBR's engine, especially the bottom part of the valve. Clear indication of soot/carbon deposition.

Now for all those readers who have completely skipped an earlier thread under sub heading: General Biking Discussion (Powerhouse: FZ18) where it was collectively explained about how a 4 stroke engine works and what is a valve overlap (refer to post: http://www.xbhp.com/talkies/general-...ml#post1028831), due to the nature of how camshaft works, profiles etc. the process of valve overlap or the intake valves being partially open during power stroke and exhaust stroke, some amount of flame manages to make its way through the air-fuel intake port and ends up partially burning the atomised air-fuel mixture. The unburnt soot/carbon then gets rapidly cooled due to the colder air-fuel mixture and ends up depositing at the bottom of the butterfly valve. For those riders who are well versed with how a carburettor works when starting the bike or idling, the butterfly valve is partially open which allows some amount of air to pass through in order to let the engine get the minimum required air flow to operate (as shown in the reference video below).



Now with the soot/carbon built up at the bottom of the butterfly valve, the amount of air flow reduces significantly thus, stalling most of carburetted bikes. In case of Honda CBR 250R's FI system, Honda has given a secondary measure by providing a IACV (Idle Air Control Valve) which gets automatically activated to compensate for any deficiency in air flow to keep the AFR stoich and the engine running at idle rpms as per the values set by the ECM. But here lies the problem, over a period of time the IACV port also starts getting soot/carbon built up which slowly reduces it's efficiency and at times may induce engine stalling in cold weather or for no apparent reason when the engine is hot, the owner experiencing horrible low end performance especially in the range of 1,500 - 3,500 rpms. The simple solution is to clean the innards of the throttle body, removing the soot/carbon deposits and restoring the air flow at idling as per the OEM design specifications of the manufacturer: Honda. Ideally one should carry out this throttle body clean once at every 25 - 30,000 kms, be it a 2 or 4 wheeler. This is all the more important for NA motors (Naturally Aspirated).

Since, Honda CBR 250R's throttle body though having a mechanically actuated throttle butterfly valve also has an electronic throttle position sensor, as a preventive measure the battery was completely disconnected in order to ensure that the ECM doesn't go bananas when it finds vast difference in the variables of revised airflow vs the current airflow before the clean up operation was initiated. So using Tribocor Carburettor cleaning spray, i then followed the method of removing the soot/carbon deposition on inside the throttle body. For procedural reference, one may look at the video link below:






Pic 18: Carburettor cleaning spray being used liberally to remove the soot/carbon deposits.

In order to understand how much of flaming and soot/carbon built up takes place in the intake side of the engine, i inspected the intake port and by looking at the pictures below, it was pretty evident that blackish deposition is there not just on the port walls but also on the two intake valves. Being an OCMD rider, i did end up calling senior rider @psr sir to confirm if the built up in this region should be any cause of concern or should i leave it the way it is. He gave me thumbs up on keeping my OCMD under check and leave the intake port and the intake valves completely alone!!





Pic 19 & 20: The intake port of Honda CBR 250R. Note the soot/carbon deposits on the intake port walls and on the intake valves.

Anyways, once, i was satisfied with the clean up session of the throttle body, the mechanic then started the process of re-installing everything the way it was. For comparison sake, if one looks at the throttle body and the butterfly valve now, the sooty deposits have completely vanished and the bottom part of the butterfly valve is spanking clean. The whole operation took near about an hour and half right from dis-assembling to putting things back: not to mention being an OCMD rider, the owner kinda got carried away and kept on spraying and re-spraying on every nook and corner of the throttle body (including IACV ports): till the mechanic pleaded and howled that it was more than enough!!





Pic 21 & 22: Throttle body being re-installed. Note the clean inner walls and the area near the bottom part of the butterfly valve.

Once, we put everything back on and the connections were thoroughly checked, the thumb starter button was pressed and the engine turned on eagerly in half a crank. At first for about 15 seconds the engine was idling @3,000 rpm and then it slowly came down to 1,500 rpm and after 2 mins it was happy @1,400 rpm. Now thanks to my discussions with @psr sir i was already aware that this was going to happen as with now air flow being restored to original levels, the ECM will need some time to re-calculate the air fuel table and then compensate accordingly. Anyways, i could immediately hear a nice purring sound emanating from the engine bay: may be just OCMD speaking here but nonetheless i was very very happy .


However, there is no way on earth i could leave the premises of the SVC without picking up some gifts for my CBR in form of spares (for future use and stockpile!!) namely:

* Front & Rear alloy wheel bearings
* Front Fork Oil seal, Dust Seal and Circlip sets (ridiculously cheap INR @300 bucks a set!!)
* Clutch friction plates.

I must say, for a sports bike the parts are ridiculously cheap!! If i remeber correctly the set of fork seal alone in my Yamaha FZ costed about INR @800 bucks whereas here i am getting a fork seal, dust seal and a circlip for a mere INR @600 bucks!! Thank you Honda ji... just that you need to work on spares supply otherwise this is simply the best housewife a rider can ask for ...







Pic 23, 24 & 25: Gifts picked up for my CBR's personal spares stockpile!!


After everything was found to be in order, i cleared of the bills and made one mechanic very very happy with lumpsum "chai paani" and started my journey back to home which is about 26 kms away from the SVC. So time for noting interesting changes...


OBSERVATIONS:

* The bike would accelerate even more quickly especially from the lower 2,000 - 6,000 rpm beyond which it would go bonkers.
* There was a noticeable grunt in the lower end. How about CBR 250R pulling @1,500 rpm in 2nd gear and then 3rd gear without stalling and knocking eh??
* Now to add more spice to the above point, how about the same thing @1,500 rpm with a pillion and no stalling or knocking??
* When the throttle was let go @6,000 rpm for the vehicle to coast under natural engine braking, the rpms would take a while to come down to 4,000 rpm and then from 4,000 to 2,500 rpm again there was a long pause. This was to be expected as the ECM was re-calibrating with the new inputs thanks to higher inflow of air.
* This time the vehicle was very very responsive and i was able to shoot past 127 - 135 kmph (AGATT and under controlled conditions only) rather very quickly and i am not what one would like to call feather weight!! :P

The new found eagerness was a welcome though i knew that it will be short lived. Once, the ECM is done re-calibrating a fresh map with the new changes observed some of the weird quirks will vanish and may be the low end throttle response too. After i reached back home, i parked my CBR and let it remain untouched for over 3 hours. In the evening i again took her out for a spin, by now the weird quirks of engine RPM not coming down from 6,000 rpm - 2,000 rom had vanished but thankfully, the low end grunt was still there.

I shall continue monitoring my CBR for another 100 kms and report back any changes if found.

Cheers,

Re: The story so far.. My Honda CBR 250R

The increased throttle response at low rpms is probably due to disconnecting the battery for 5-15 mintues, which is said to reset the ECU memory, which stores our riding parameters.

I experienced the same thing thrice, because I was searching for a solution to my CBR shutting off randomly. For the past 2 months, I've been disconnecting the battery for 15 mintues every weekend, and each time I ride the vehicle afterwards, I noted increased throttle response.


This didn't solve my engine shut off problem, so I changed the air filter, and now for the past 2-3 weeks, I don't have that problem. I agree with the 10k interval of the air filter change.

Re: The story so far.. My Honda CBR 250R

Update after running the Rimula R4 for 200 kms. This is the current state of the oil.

Engine shutting off issue

I was sick of writing numerous mails to Honda to address my problem of engine shutting down abruptly but in the end thanks to PSR sir to help me out sort out the problem. I still remember the instance when i called ASC and wrote to honda to help me out with the engine shut off issue when i was riding with my wife as pillion and the vehicle shut off on a steep incline right in front of a trailer ,somehow i managed to push my bike out off the road in the nick of the time but it was a scary moment for us. It took three months for regional office to even reply to my mail & later when i got a call from them i told them i had managed to solve the problem.The best part was when they asked me how the problem was solved i told them..... find it out for yourself..

Re: Engine shutting off issue

Shv18..Thanks again for a detailed write up which helps in updating knowledge for all of us. The drained Shell Ultra does look a bit dark in color. The FZ filter seems to be doing a good job judging by the filter color changing to the color of the particles it had filtered....
Like always a Throttle Body cleaning seemingly puts back a new life into engine performance , while it actually restores the engine breathing to stock level ..Like you had mentioned a new found improvement will last as long as the Valve overlap blow back does not close the minuscule gap under the throttle blade .. It is better to do a TB clean every 20 K Kms in a city bike and 30 K Kms on highway rider.

Khailasnj....The R4 is slightly discolored and how it fares at 1,000 Kms will surely give an indication of the state of cleanliness inside engine . Though the color is not something to be alarmed of at 1,500 to 2,000 Kms, a darker color bordering on black is an indication of either existing deposits or a ring leak...only after a second change will an evaluation be done. The R4 being a HDEO oil contains more detergents meant to keep the diesel engine cleaner, and hence will clean out the Petrol engine better than the recommended gasoline engine oils.
Let us wait and see the color of oil at 1,000 kms...
Good Luck.


Thanks for your kind words of appreciation . It is Good to know that Shv18's foray into a used CBR250R bike had opened up a dam of information , problems, and their solution , which is now helping so many CBR250 users in India and elsewhere .

Your recollection of engine stall in traffic, on an incline, with your wife as pillion is really scary.

As another contributor to the thread, I am happy to see that this specific problem plaguing a lot of CBR owners , had found a permanent fix through our combined effort ...


Thanks for sharing the info in this thread.
Good Luck.

Re: The story so far.. My Honda CBR 250R

I do get random pings (like knock knock who's there) for a few seconds once in a week for example. It has no fixed pattern. Valve clearances are in check and I was wondering what could be causing it. The bike rides absolutely normally 99.99% of the time.

Never did it occur to me to clean the throttle body. It has been a while. I'll be heading to my 97k service soon and hopefully get this sorted. BTW, I do give Rimula and PSR sir all the credit for keeping my bike alive with stock parts all this while.

Re: The story so far.. My Honda CBR 250R

Try the Secondary Earth wire mod...From battery Negative to the chassis...I had done it long time back in my ZMA, by connecting Battery Negative to the Battery cage mounting bolt .

Re: The story so far.. My Honda CBR 250R

#PSR - I faced the engine stalling issue today. Was riding at a speed of 40 KMS and suddenly the engine died on me. Luckily I was on a relative free road to could press the clutch and start the engine. I am little skeptical. I already have the Earth wire mod but still this is little scary. Kindly suggest what should I do to diagnose the issue.

Kailash

Re: The story so far.. My Honda CBR 250R

Hi @kailashnj

as per my observations here are the following possibilities behind the sudden stall you experienced with your CBR:

* Bad/Adulterated fuel: Had run through this issue twice after earth wire mod especially in winter (detailed write up can be found on this thread a few posts back). Once i changed the petrol bunk this problem completely vanished. Have never experienced stall after that.

* Earth Wire mod not done properly. probably tightening the wire or going for pure copper 10 mm inverter wires should make the connection better as advised by @psr sir.

* Dirty air filter/fuel filter: Check on those and see if they have been taken care of in your last service.

* TB (Throttle Body Cleaning): As explained in my earlier post, i hope it will help you to take necessary action accordingly.

* Check condition of the Spark Plug and see if it is ok. Honda uses OEM NGK Iridium plug which is usually very robust. In the event of pre-detonation thanks to dirty or adulterated fuel if the plug fouls badly, this may happen.


Since, you reside away from the main hub of the Metropolis, i would first suspect bad/adulterated fuel. FI bikes are slightly more sensitive to fuel than the usual carb'd bikes. Change the petrol bunk, go for a ride to Western Mumbai or BKC and fill up fuel from Company run petrol bunk (Bharat Petroleum in BKC). See if after doing a tank full and hopefully along with usage of Iftex: System G (fuel additive for cleaning) resolves this issue completely.


All the best...

Cheers,

Re: The story so far.. My Honda CBR 250R

There are 3 possibilities for the sudden stall of engine.

1. The Earth wire having resistance ( most bikes with a good painted/powder coated frame are notorious for this.)

2. The Butterfly valve in Throttle body/ CV Carburetor is coated with soot, thereby grossly reducing the closed position air leak into engine. When throttle is closed after bike is doing some amount of speed, the sudden closing of throttle blade ( in the absence of minimal gap) cuts air going into the engine , and all of a sudden the AFR becomes overly rich leading to engine shutdown.

3. Adulterated fuel, which requires more oxygen/air to burn due to lesser combustibility .

These three are the most common problems and depends greatly on care and maintenance ..Ignition switch loose contact, fuse loose contact, connectors developing loose contact etc., are the many other possibilities

Since you had already done the Earth wire mod, check out the other two possibility.

Good Luck

Re: The story so far.. My Honda CBR 250R

I think you both have pointed to the same reason. And to think of this was the first time that filled in from a bunk that was far off from my house and hence think that could be one of the reason. Was travelling little far and saw that the fuel was on the last bar hence filled it somewhere on the highway.

I am sure the issue is not with Earth wire mod as its connected to the RR Unit. Thanks for pointing. I will keep you guys updated.

Re: The story so far.. My Honda CBR 250R

QUICK UPDATE:

Hi All,

this is a quick update post the last service. I now have managed to do near about 227 kms in the last 2 - 3 days and i am happy to report that things are looking on the brighter side with my Honda CBR 250R.

* The low to mid range grunt has remained to be very responsive in comparison to Pre-Throttle Body cleaning. I have shamelessly tried to stall the engine in 2nd and 3rd gear by trying to lug the engine. However, the vehicle managed to pull through without knocking and can happily do it in rpms as low as 1,600 onwards. My guess is the ECM has already tabulated the new found changes with the air flow and hopefully this eagerness is here to stay as over 200 kms is more than enough to crunch the fuel table map.

* The earlier weird vibrations which were present between 3,000 - 4,000 have completely vanished. My guess is with proper air flow and ECM compensating the correct amount of fuelling, we are now looking at ideal stoichometric AFR getting pumped into my CBR which has reduced vibes as in comparison to the earlier state.

* My CBR is happy to putter around @100 kmph+ all day long. Earlier the vibrations on the right hand side of would literally numb my hands. My guess is Shell Rimula R4 is doing its magic killing all the vibes for good. Engine temps are also comparatively on the lower side though having said that the OEM LC system is very very efficient so this add on is surely a good thing.

* There seems to be a new found punch (seat on pants feeling). My guess is with high Zinc and detergent content in this Rimula R4 engine oil, the piston ring land sealing is better which is leading to lesser blow-by = bigger bang inside the combustion chamber = ideal burn taking place = better power. But again this all will sound jibberish till i see if there is any noticeable difference with the FE figures which will give us a clearer picture of what is happening inside the engine and whether the theorised stuff is actually the real reason behind the new found eagerness.

* Engine loves to rev very very quickly even, better than earlier! So i guess the new recipe for an OCMD CBR owner is: Proper service + Periodic throttle body cleaning + Earth Wire Mod + Experimental Shell Rimula HDEO oil = Happy rider


Based on initial observations, i would highly recommend throttle body cleaning for all CBR owners who have completed over 25, 000 kms on their respective bikes odometer. There seems to be a profound effect on the way the vehicle behaves post throttle Body cleaning. Slight OT but here is a fun fact: my family car Suzuki Swift Dzire Diesel has recently done service and again Shell Rimula R4 was chosen. This time the FE is hovering at 20.9 kmpl with AC on, a sheer jump of near about 1.7 kmpl than in comparison to using MGP oil!!! I don't know about you guys but if i follow logic, "the high content of ZDDP and high detergent engine oil leading to better efficiency" theory seems to be working on this vehicle.

I am really excited to see what happens with my Honda CBR 250R as we continue to use Rimula R4 HDEO oil. If we go by the last number crunching, my 250R has already cover around 6,000+ kms with Rimula R4 HDEO oil. With this fresh batch i am expecting the oil to last about 2,500 kms which will take the total kms done on an HDEO oil to about 8,500+ kms. I am eagerly awaiting for the results: Like in the case of my car, if similar effects on FE jump and better vibe control are also observed on my CBR as this oil continues cleaning the engine internals as i clock more kms on the odo.


time to head back to the real world...



Cheers,