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**gixxer_junkie_m** · 09-16-2011, 08:03 PM

Originally posted by julianpaul View Post

If you do a simple read up of the NGK site itself you will understand what the application of a colder plug is. And it's not to cool down your rtr engine! See the quote i've posted above. I'm sure mr. junkie has boosted his rtr/superfiero output by 50hp atleast, which is how he's cooling his engine down with a colder plug

Regarding my fiero,it has a bored-out cylinder to 195cc,increased compression.This was done by putting a flat-top piston(not stock ZMA piston) of the karizma.
It has RTR180 TCI ignition.
It has ucal BS29mm carb.
It has a modified silencer to make it free flowing.
It has a ported head.

**Garry_Menace** · 09-16-2011, 08:04 PM

Originally posted by abhishekch View Post

garry stop taking side ,besides stop them to comment in inappropriate language on forum . they both are sensible and xbhpian, we are like family here.
both of you guys stop fighting .if you want to proof your point you can do its an open forum but not using this type of language for each other.
you both are senior enough to know such type of things.
unless it attract mods

ps: you can use any type of language for svc guys..

I wasn't taking side. Neither of them pay me for that

, unfortunately

Anyways, jokes apart, I just tried to stop atleast the one whom I know better thinking, that if I'll (read WE) stop atleast one of them, the arguement will stop and the thread won't attract mods.

**julianpaul** · 09-16-2011, 08:51 PM

Originally posted by gixxer_junkie_m View Post

Here's informative link as to how a spark plug functions by transferring a part of the heat from the combustion chamber to the cylinder.
That is,quicker the heat is transferred from the plug to the cylinder,combustion chamber will get cooler quickly.That's why heat ranges are given to spark plug.

NGK Spark Plugs USA

I have no idea how you inferred that the heat being transferred from the spark plug tip to the cylinder head is to cool the combustion chamber. The transfer of heat is to cool down the firing tip, not the chamber. Read what the page says carefully. If the tip is too cool, it will foul, if it's too hot it will cause preignition and possible damage to the piston top, conrods etc. The heat from the tip is dissipated into the head, which then has to be cooled by the air or liquid cooling.

When you have temperatures inside the combustion chamber going above 1500 degrees celsius, can you really imagine a tiny little finger sized spark plug, the tip of which itself is between 500 and 800 degrees actually pulling heat out and cooling the chamber?

Originally posted by gixxer_junkie_m View Post

Regarding my fiero,it has a bored-out cylinder to 195cc,increased compression.This was done by putting a flat-top piston(not stock ZMA piston) of the karizma.
It has RTR180 TCI ignition.
It has ucal BS29mm carb.
It has a modified silencer to make it free flowing.
It has a ported head.

I don't think you were talking about this engine when you recommended switching to a colder plug for a colder engine.

http://www.xbhp.com/talkies/motorcyc...tml#post685226

**gixxer_junkie_m** · 09-16-2011, 09:01 PM

Originally posted by julianpaul View Post

I have no idea how you inferred that the heat being transferred from the spark plug tip to the cylinder head is to cool the combustion chamber. The transfer of heat is to cool down the firing tip, not the chamber. Read what the page says carefully. If the tip is too cool, it will foul, if it's too hot it will cause preignition and possible damage to the piston top, conrods etc. The heat from the tip is dissipated into the head, which then has to be cooled by the air or liquid cooling.

When you have temperatures inside the combustion chamber going above 1500 degrees celsius, can you really imagine a tiny little finger sized spark plug, the tip of which itself is between 500 and 800 degrees actually pulling heat out and cooling the chamber?

I don't think you were talking about this engine when you recommended switching to a colder plug for a colder engine.

No i was talking about the NGK R CR7E, NGK CR7E GP and the NGK R CR7E IX iridium options for the stock RTR/Fiero.
My bike currently is running NGK CR9E GP and till recent the NGK R CR9E plug.

Coming to whether the spark plug can or cannot help in transferring the heat from the combustion chamber ,with the thumb size area it's exposed to,well it does.Every single thing matters,for ex the twin electrodes on the spark plug will increase the compression and will be more heat inducing than that of a single ground electrode plug.

**shivank** · 09-16-2011, 10:13 PM

Originally posted by julianpaul View Post

You're posting the same site i posted earlier, which is the NGK usa website, and still haven't responded about substantiating your claim that a colder plug will cause a decrease in engine temperature. You're just being abusive and running circles around without answering a simple question. If you claim that the engine is cooler with a plug colder than TVS's stock, prove it!

When to use a colder plug is clear from your link itself:

"In short, select one heat range colder for every 75-100 hp you add, or when you significantly raise compression. Also remember to retard the timing a little and to increase fuel enrichment and octane. These tips are critical when adding forced induction (turbos, superchargers or nitrous kits), and failure to address ALL of these areas will virtually guarantee engine damage."

No one, not even NGK, is claiming, unlike you are, that just switching to a colder plug on a stock engine will decrease engine temp. It's widely understood that any decrease in temp is marginal. When NGK say that a colder plug will result in a cooler engine, first, they're talking about multi-cylinder engines with a few hundred horsepower, which are then being further tuned for horsepower. The additional power being generated results in the plug tip nearing the operating limits, which then requires a colder plug to bring the tip temp back to optimal range.

Originally posted by julianpaul View Post

I have no idea how you inferred that the heat being transferred from the spark plug tip to the cylinder head is to cool the combustion chamber. The transfer of heat is to cool down the firing tip, not the chamber. Read what the page says carefully. If the tip is too cool, it will foul, if it's too hot it will cause preignition and possible damage to the piston top, conrods etc. The heat from the tip is dissipated into the head, which then has to be cooled by the air or liquid cooling.

When you have temperatures inside the combustion chamber going above 1500 degrees celsius, can you really imagine a tiny little finger sized spark plug, the tip of which itself is between 500 and 800 degrees actually pulling heat out and cooling the chamber?

Thanks. I think I got answer to my query!

Originally posted by gixxer_junkie_m View Post

Regarding my fiero,it has a bored-out cylinder to 195cc,increased compression.This was done by putting a flat-top piston(not stock ZMA piston) of the karizma.
It has RTR180 TCI ignition.
It has ucal BS29mm carb.
It has a modified silencer to make it free flowing.
It has a ported head.

@ Gixxer_junkie

I am being honest and not biased here.

One can already see the the exhaustive list of mods you have done to your ride. In which case, you talking and claiming about colder plugs makes sense. If it were a stock RTR owner talking like that, I would have dismissed him after reading the above post by julian/ngk website.

It might be that you were taking your bike as reference when this duel took place between you two. Julian mistook you for any normal stock RTR owner, I guess.

Anyway, from the little brain I have, I can only conclude this: When you tune-up or add considerable horses to your ride, the CR increases due to which the combustion temperature also increases( Making sense?).
To keep this temperature rise in check, we run a colder plug.

Some information I gathered from google. Although basic, but could be of much help to understand:

Some cars require a hot plug. This type of plug is designed with a ceramic insert that has a smaller contact area with the metal part of the plug. This reduces the heat transfer from the ceramic, making it run hotter and thus burn away more deposits. Cold plugs are designed with more contact area, so they run cooler.

The difference between a "hot" and a "cold" spark plug is in the shape of the ceramic tip.
The carmaker will select the right temperature plug for each car. Some cars with high-performance engines naturally generate more heat, so they need colder plugs. If the spark plug gets too hot, it could ignite the fuel before the spark fires; so it is important to stick with the right type of plug for your car.

Based on this, I would stick to manufacturer's recommended plug until I up the power/bhp numbers by a substantial margin.

**julianpaul** · 09-16-2011, 10:26 PM

Originally posted by shivank View Post

It might be that you were taking your bike as reference when this duel took place between you two. Julian mistook you for any normal stock RTR owner, I guess.

Negative, in this link http://www.xbhp.com/talkies/motorcyc...tml#post685226, he was advising 180 owners. The fiero was mentioned much later when he was bragging about zen tvs and the superduperpowerprofiero.

Anyway, screw this, his last post was the bomb, i have nothing more to say. Let the games continue...

**gixxer_junkie_m** · 09-16-2011, 10:35 PM

Originally posted by shivank View Post

Thanks. I think I got answer to my query!

@ Gixxer_junkie

I am being honest and not biased here.

One can already see the the exhaustive list of mods you have done to your ride. In which case, you talking and claiming about colder plugs makes sense. If it were a stock RTR owner talking like that, I would have dismissed him after reading the above post by julian/ngk website.

It might be that you were taking your bike as reference when this duel took place between you two. Julian mistook you for any normal stock RTR owner, I guess.

Anyway, from the little brain I have, I can only conclude this: When you tune-up or add considerable horses to your ride, the CR increases due to which the combustion temperature also increases( Making sense?).
To keep this temperature rise in check, we run a colder plug.

Some information I gathered from google. Although basic, but could be of much help to understand:

Based on this, I would stick to manufacturer's recommended plug until I up the power/bhp numbers by a substantial margin.

Bro,leave aside the modifications done on my bike for now.Just think about it this way.
Why would there be numbers on spark plugs?

When in a country like ours where most of the bikes are single engined air cooled engines,why do manufacturers put so many different types and plugs of such varying heat ranges?
When if it didn't matter,they could have simply have used a single plug for all the bikes made in india,couldn't they?

Why do you think bajaj dtsi bikes have different heat ranged plugs on the same engine?That is left is different to that of the right in heat range?

The answer and truth is.That anything which is inside a combustion chamber matters and matters a lot at that.Think about it,our bikes rev to 10k rpm and back!! and that's a very stressful condition for a engine. Can you imagine the kind of condition that will be there inside a combustion chamber?can you imagine the kind of environment a spark plug has to function in?
When we are talking about a spark plug making a difference or not.We are talking literally in millimeters.Every mm inside a combustion chamber makes a difference! It's not like a open air environment with lot of room.

At the end of it,yes TVS has chosen this plug for a reason and they would have thought of all the things and decided on it.But the stock plug is hotter than the one i suggested and it's suggested by NGK.The fact is the design of the stock plug makes it hotter than the NGK suggested one.
The Suzuki fiero came with NGK R CR7E as stock and once the JV ended Tvs switched over to mico spark plugs for the same bike.The reason i think is because NGK spark plugs were being imported from japan and TVS thought rightly so that mico ones with same heat range were good enough and they were of similar design too.I am not inferring anything about quality or lack of it here.Just an example of choice for the same machine.

It's your choice and i was just telling the difference in design between the stock and the NGK spark plug.

**Abhii46** · 09-16-2011, 11:01 PM

And now I can see why this fight started.

**dead_piper** · 09-16-2011, 11:22 PM

wow that was FUN... :P even xpolice must have enjoyed that one :P

**saipranav** · 09-16-2011, 11:52 PM

Originally posted by gixxer_junkie_m View Post

Bro,leave aside the modifications done on my bike for now.Just think about it this way.
Why would there be numbers on spark plugs?

When in a country like ours where most of the bikes are single engined air cooled engines,why do manufacturers put so many different types and plugs of such varying heat ranges?
When if it didn't matter,they could have simply have used a single plug for all the bikes made in india,couldn't they?

Why do you think bajaj dtsi bikes have different heat ranged plugs on the same engine?That is left is different to that of the right in heat range?

The answer and truth is.That anything which is inside a combustion chamber matters and matters a lot at that.Think about it,our bikes rev to 10k rpm and back!! and that's a very stressful condition for a engine. Can you imagine the kind of condition that will be there inside a combustion chamber?can you imagine the kind of environment a spark plug has to function in?
When we are talking about a spark plug making a difference or not.We are talking literally in millimeters.Every mm inside a combustion chamber makes a difference! It's not like a open air environment with lot of room.

At the end of it,yes TVS has chosen this plug for a reason and they would have thought of all the things and decided on it.But the stock plug is hotter than the one i suggested and it's suggested by NGK.The fact is the design of the stock plug makes it hotter than the NGK suggested one.
The Suzuki fiero came with NGK R CR7E as stock and once the JV ended Tvs switched over to mico spark plugs for the same bike.The reason i think is because NGK spark plugs were being imported from japan and TVS thought rightly so that mico ones with same heat range were good enough and they were of similar design too.I am not inferring anything about quality or lack of it here.Just an example of choice for the same machine.

It's your choice and i was just telling the difference in design between the stock and the NGK spark plug.

If anyone can not make sense out of this post... then there is no point continuing the discussion... and we can get back to repairing my ****ed up bike

... which people have stopped bothering a few pages back...

P.S. If some one has experienced a similar problem to mine... please do share some info... my ASC mech is clueless and damn lazy...

**nox2505** · 09-17-2011, 12:16 AM

This thread has become techy after long time. Hence jumping in again after long time of hibernation.
@ all fighters and spectators:
I won't abuse or attack some one here but just few points:

1. Heat range is related to plug tip, which is not in direct contact of engine head which is liquid or air cooled. External spark plug area cooling is provided on some bikes, because no fins or coolant jacket can be provided in near proximity.

2. Engine head is made of aluminium, which conducts the heat faster than plug anode insulator. Surface area in combustion chamber-i need not tell this. Every one knows plug surface is very small as compared to Head.

3. Single to twin point plug compression difference: True in theory but practically important for multi cylinder engines tuned for 150+ bhp and running 11.5 + compression- Do consider that our bikes are tooooooooooooo tiny for this.

4. Considering spark plug construction, theoretically hot plug will cool engine faster as shell is exposed more to combustion inside the plug cavity than cold plug.

5. Iridium IX is good for our bikes, if considered life. mannnn! that plug losses its efficiency at 30-35k, against 8-10k life of stock plug.

I own RTR, which is stock while i am posting this.

**dead_piper** · 09-17-2011, 12:18 AM

ha ha ha .. sai dude try ur method of complaining to higher officials na... may work again.

nox welcome back join the talks :P

**julianpaul** · 09-17-2011, 12:47 AM

Originally posted by gixxer_junkie_m View Post

Bro,leave aside the modifications done on my bike for now.Just think about it this way.
Why would there be numbers on spark plugs?

When in a country like ours where most of the bikes are single engined air cooled engines,why do manufacturers put so many different types and plugs of such varying heat ranges?
When if it didn't matter,they could have simply have used a single plug for all the bikes made in india,couldn't they?

Why do you think bajaj dtsi bikes have different heat ranged plugs on the same engine?That is left is different to that of the right in heat range?

The answer and truth is.That anything which is inside a combustion chamber matters and matters a lot at that.Think about it,our bikes rev to 10k rpm and back!! and that's a very stressful condition for a engine. Can you imagine the kind of condition that will be there inside a combustion chamber?can you imagine the kind of environment a spark plug has to function in?
When we are talking about a spark plug making a difference or not.We are talking literally in millimeters.Every mm inside a combustion chamber makes a difference! It's not like a open air environment with lot of room.

At the end of it,yes TVS has chosen this plug for a reason and they would have thought of all the things and decided on it.But the stock plug is hotter than the one i suggested and it's suggested by NGK.The fact is the design of the stock plug makes it hotter than the NGK suggested one.
The Suzuki fiero came with NGK R CR7E as stock and once the JV ended Tvs switched over to mico spark plugs for the same bike.The reason i think is because NGK spark plugs were being imported from japan and TVS thought rightly so that mico ones with same heat range were good enough and they were of similar design too.I am not inferring anything about quality or lack of it here.Just an example of choice for the same machine.

It's your choice and i was just telling the difference in design between the stock and the NGK spark plug.

ROTFLOL! It's friday night, i'm just down a couple beers but i'll have whatever you're smoking man! it seems to be working reeeeaalllyy well !!

From Spark plug - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Heat from the combustion chamber escapes through the exhaust gases, the side walls of the cylinder and the spark plug itself. The heat range of a spark plug has only a minute effect on combustion chamber and overall engine temperature. A cold plug will not materially cool down an engine's running temperature."

**gixxer_junkie_m** · 09-17-2011, 12:52 AM

Originally posted by julianpaul View Post

ROTFLOL! It's friday night, i'm just down a couple beers but i'll have whatever you're smoking man! it seems to be working reeeeaalllyy well !!

From Spark plug - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Heat from the combustion chamber escapes through the exhaust gases, the side walls of the cylinder and the spark plug itself. The heat range of a spark plug has only a minute effect on combustion chamber and overall engine temperature. A cold plug will not materially cool down an engine's running temperature."

Yeah thanks,cheers to you too.

**julianpaul** · 09-17-2011, 01:01 AM

Originally posted by nox2505 View Post

4. Considering spark plug construction, theoretically hot plug will cool engine faster as shell is exposed more to combustion inside the plug cavity than cold plug.

In theory yes, i already accepted there will be a marginal increase, but anyone know how much?

Originally posted by nox2505 View Post

5. Iridium IX is good for our bikes, if considered life. mannnn! that plug losses its efficiency at 30-35k, against 8-10k life of stock plug.

So iridium lasts 3-3.5 times longer than the bosch. And costs almost 5 times more!

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