Re: KTM 200 Duke

Alright Guys..Today was a boring day at office. Looked outside the window at 4 PM and the weather was perfect to ride. To add to that, today traffic was very less in this part of the city.

What then, sneeked out at 4PM, started the bike and vrooom went on a Time Pass ride towards the Palm Beach Road.

As the weather, road and traffic condition was perfect, tried to hit top speed a couple of times.

And I was happy to register 135 on more than 3 occassions over a very short distance. I felt I could have hit more, however, was little scared as i was not prepared to visit 135 so soon.

So what went wrong during the weekend ride? Well you see, I was wearing rain coat during the ride, and when you ride hard, the rain coat traps air within and acts as a small parachute. To add to that it was raining all the while.

I am glad to see 135 on the speedo as all this while I was a little disappointed for not being able to go more than 129, and was cursing KTM for restricting the speed on recent models.

I am a very happy man today....

Re: KTM 200 Duke

@splus, @chinmayakar did the testing today to here are the results, finally i was able to trace that speed sensor wire and disconnected that one wire alone and wroom i had disconnected the speed sensor data to the ECU

Few observations, as mentioned a while ago the stock ECU is an intelligent one. The first run let me hit 147 today easily, 2nd try it took a while and did 144 then the 3rd try took longer and didn't let me pass 143 and after about 20 mins of continues ride tried again and took really long to even do 138. So basically what is happening, as i had assumed the ECU gets signals from more than one source so what happens is loops back to different map or sub map to not let you go past a factory set speed in this case. It learns by itself as run after run and till a certain factory off set is achieved it may be by leaning out the AFR or ignition timing or anything for that matter. But try's to keep it back to the stock set up

Again this is happening only on the stock map now i don't know how the ECU will react with the custom remap. This is something you guys have to test and let me know and below is the image of the wire to disconnect. Again guys this is at your own risk and assume you already know it by now




So for now i ll be getting some jugaad here i ll get a switch build like a NOS switch lol which i ll use only when on a highway where i need more top speeds ( which i dont know where in India i will get) till then the bike will have stock speed signals sent to the ECU

Re: KTM 200 Duke

You see, that's why I'm asking you so many questions - I had no idea about parabolic reflector either. I knew P220 has a projector setup, but had know idea how low/high beams work in it.

I asked about a single projector for both low and high beams, if there is such a thing???

If I could have a long and focused low beam then there's no need for high beam whatsoever.
In fact, I don't know who invented low and high beam "technology", but just a single, normal beam that has a bright and strong spread in front, and reaches longer but still below the eye level of other vehicles would be perfect for everyone. No blinding and everyone can see the road in front of them. Does that sound like utopian society? Or heaven?

So, a parabolic reflector from P220 would need too many changes? No, I don't want to do any modifications in the bike's headlight.

If a single projector setup doesn't exist or isn't a good option then I guess the be-xenon is the only acceptable solution? Better low beam than the stock (with Phillips bulb) and better (and less blinding?) high beam than stock?

Thanks BTW, I appreciate you writing this!

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It looks like that speed limiter is exactly at 137 kmh. Mine is, and another video also shows it exactly at 137 kmh. I don't know if [MENTION=53683]Chethan Shivakumar[/MENTION] said his limit was exaclt at 135 kmh, or was it more or less?
Are you now on 42T? My top with old December KTM ECU remap was 134 kmh with 43T. Before the remap I was hitting the speed limiter at 137 kmh.

So, I think if you already attained a speed higher than 137 kmh then you should be able to go higher.
I am yet to have the proper "normal" top speed run on a short highway with my Kiirus and 43T sprocket. I plan to do that in next couple of days.
I felt that Kiirus wasn't really increasing the top end power but only stretching the rev limiter to 11,700 rpm. Lows and mids are quite stronger with Kiirus, but not really the top end.
I'll give it some testing and will know soon.

Still, you should probably be able to go to 145 kmh with Kiirus and 42T sprocket.
HOWEVER - if you change to 40T sprocket and have Kiirus, then, I believe, one should be able to reach 155 kmh.

I'll go to Pondicherry (closest SC) in next week or two and change my chain and put 40T sprocket, and then will be able to properly test the top speed.

Although, I'll be cheating little bit - that MRA windscreen does help a lot with top speed!
I'll probably take it off in couple of days, it doesn't make much sense in small rides around a town. Will be putting it on only when going for some trips.


Yay!
Yes, I've found even small things can affect the top end considerably.
My experience with Duke is that slightly uphill hardly makes any difference (yay for Duke!), but the wind can reduce the top speed considerably. Any air resistance will reduce it. That's why having a windscreen is an amazing thing for top speed... If you want to have a good top end you'll have to tuck in.

But, I wish you went just slightly further in your check and see if you would hit the limit at 137 kmh!
It's very sharp and would throw you back some 5 kmh instantly. The rev limiter is soft, it reduces the speed only by couple of kmh.
If you reached 138 kmh then you're good to go without unplugging any wires!


You're DA MAN!!!

That's great find Chethan!
OK, I'll try it myself if not tomorrow then day after.

I think it's HIGHLY unlikely that there's any additional system for self adjustment of that limiter. In fact, I'm pretty sure that ECU doesn't have such capabilities. It only has one single map which it uses to regulate the FI. You might want to talk to Abhishek from Kiirus since he's been remapping the ECUs of not only KTM but many other cars and bikes, so he should know everything about ECUs...

Duke often has its ups and downs, and varying top speed runs are normal. And when engine gets hotter it is often normal that the performance drops slightly. This, is after all, quite pushing it.
Just look at the reviews for D390 - some are reaching 172 kmh, and some aren't able to go higher than 160 kmh.
Tomorrow you might reach 145+ kmh again...

So, I wouldn't worry, and I don't think there is any reason for putting an extra switch. Just unplug that blue and white bad guy and enjoy your bike!

Few things:
- Have you tried to unplug the other blue and white wire as well?? You might want to try that so that ECU doesn't get any extra signals about the speed. In fact, it's probably the best not to let anything besides the light and blinkers to stay connected...
- From what I can see in the photo, it looks like the blue and white wire can be unplugged from the socket easily. Is that the case? Just an easy pull out?

Re: KTM 200 Duke

As i have mentioned earlier, Motozone has already done this where the ECU doesn't restrict the rev/torque limiter. So unless you are still planning on digging deeper you can get the work done for a mere 1k. They also have an ECU remap which allows the Duke to rev till 12,500 rpm and can custom tune according to your needs. Though again, personally i am not in favour of riding an engine at the extreme limit as it will increase the wear and tear of the engine internals...

@splus : Mate, i just read about your 40T rear sprocket option. I feel it is worth the experiment to go ahead with the 40T rear sprocket upgrade. If at a later stage you do plan to get the bike's rev limiter off then you can witness speeds of excess of 145 - 150 kmph. I feel from 39T and below the gearing will become way too tall or as tall as the KTM Duke 390 which everyone seems to be complaining about... And with the MR RNB screen those speeds will be easier to maintain thanks to the protection from the windblast you are getting now...

Cheers,

Re: KTM 200 Duke

Well, that 1k Rs mod for taking out the speed limiter has just been made obsolete by [MENTION=53683]Chethan Shivakumar[/MENTION] - one just needs to unplug a single blue-white wire out of that black socket that's inside the big blue socket behind the front left part of the tank. Easy.
I'll do it tomorrow if I have time, or day after, and have a top speed run. And will just leave that wire unplugged...

Yeah, just today I was riding around and accelerating, and paying attention to the actual speed, not just the revs, and it feels that 43T sprocket is very much short geared. We all knew that, but it feels like it's actually slowing down the bike.
So, I'll go for 40T. 40T should make the bike accelerate faster than 43, but not sure when compared to 42T.
I haven't tried 40T yet so can't say anything, but I think 41T should probably have the fastest acceleration. Not the revs, but the actual speed.

Yeah, it would be interesting to check those options of increasing the rev limiter to 12.5k rpm, but, because the engine makes its peak power at 10k rpm, I think some additional mods should be made as well to help out with the top end power. Right now, it feels as if the bike needs something more than just a ECU remap to have a better top end. Either the exhaust or the air filter or engine internals or modified engine or whatever else.
But from my experience and feeling the power from 10k to 11.7k rpm - we'll need something more than just an ECU map to have a higher power at top end.

I think the tuners are just starting to catch up with Duke, and will be increasing the Duke's performance to much higher levels. Good times ahead!

Re: KTM 200 Duke

I agree and disagree to a few points mentioned by you, below are the points i disagree:
1. Its a LC engine so your performance cant drop the way i tested is that is the case then lap after lap the moto gp SBK will have a drop in performance, I know i am not supposed to compare a motogp SBK but just for example sake i am. Ideal LC engine are supposed to give the same performance no matter what yea off course its the law of physics that when there is too much heat there will be a little dip in performance but not to an extent where you can feel it the way i mentioned

2. Dont under estimate the Duke 200 ECU its a far more advanced ECU than just having a single map its a little monster. My friend once had told me its easy to tune a Honda Vtec ECU but you ll pull your hair off trying to tune the Duke ECU and i literally laughed at him then and now i know what he meant and he is a ECU specialist done up many cars and SBK's in middle east and EU.

Agree to the following:
1. Have you tried to unplug the other blue and white wire as well?? You might want to try that so that ECU doesn't get any extra signals about the speed. In fact, it's probably the best not to let anything besides the light and blinkers to stay connected.

Removing the wire from the socket is a cake walk if you had experience earlier in removing any socket wiring/ECU wiring before its just a small delicate click/clip with you need to push and pull the wire out but before that be sure to remove the water proof blue lock with a small blunt paper clip

I did try to speak to Abhishek from Kiirus yesterday before i could tell him anything or ask anything he said arey we tune cars and Duke is not supposed to be pushed too much coz its light weight its a good bike to play around with from 0-100 beyond that you shouldn't push it. When i wanted to talk to him abt the speed limiter he didnt have the time he said yea there is a speed limiter and removing that will be illegal for him so didnt want to talk to him more about my findings so said ok when your in Bangalore i ll like to meet up and discuss for which he said i can like his FB page and i ll get updated when his team is coming to Bangalore.

Here i know some ppl are busy tuning big cars and other busy work but what i didnt like was your un willingness to listen to what the other person wants to talk. Anyways i have nothing against him its just my view or may be i was one of those guys who had to speak to him on his bad day never know.

No Serge i think still the the Motozone ppl have found a tweet which is actually the real tweak i am not sure . Reason why i say this is just disconnecting the wire may give you the result now. But in the long run will it affect anything i really dont know. From what i know this speed sensing wire is based on a voltage it triggers that lets the ECU know that its hit a certain speed.

For example sake here is how this may be working. Lets say at 20kph the wire is transmitting 0.1volt and at 40kph 0.2 and it grows exponentially and at 135 its transmitting some 1volt signal now this could be the trigger set point on the ECU so once you receive that 1 volt cut off torque or fuel or something. Now for me or any one to test this we ll need simulators for the ECU or a Dyno to actually test this which is something out of my or our reach at the moment i would say

Now to your point why your low and mid is better compared to the top is coz the Duke injector is a little on the weaker side for the top end so you cant tune much on the top end
some days back when i was searching i found one
Dyno-Boost Adjustable Fuel Controller Performance Chip KTM 200 Duke - Authentic Magnum : Amazon.com : Automotive
and even this say that it will improve only the low and mid but no where says the top end
So only if you upgrade to a better injector is when you can better tune the top end which in my opinion is a big task !!!

Just few more info here the ECU in KTM Duke 200 is BOSCH ME17.9.8 TC1762. Its shares some platforms with the below ECU's this is just to give you an overview of what kind of ECU is in our little monster
Source: Google

Re: KTM 200 Duke

The engine performance variation is just from my personal experience, not from any theory.
I've had even higher variations with high speed performance with R15 I had 5 years ago. I've found it to be very sensitive to heat. Even if the engine wasn't being overheated.

Yeah, Abhishek is mostly into cars and not very open to talk about other mods. He also told @chinmayakar that he's not interested in removing the speed limiter. Which is OK, it's his choice what he wants to do and what not...
Regarding his ECU map and the top end power, he told me some time ago that the top end power in his map is completely maxed out, and can't be increased any more. I suppose that matches with you saying that the fuel injector is not big enough to push the engine even more...

But how about talking to Vikram from Motozone about the speed limiter? He's the one who told me they are doing this mod of removing the speed limiter, and that it's inside the speedo, and requires some rewiring. He should know exactly what you're talking about, and he seemed open to talk about it. Which is better from a business perspective - he'll get more customers with such an attitude!

I still doubt there's some additional intelligent behaviour in ECU that takes over when a certain speed is achieved. I think it just receives the electrical signal from the speedo, as you described, and then acts when a certain speed is reached.

But let's see. I hope to be able to check the top speed tomorrow. My bike isn't in a perfect condition at the moment to chase the top speed - there's more tapet noise, and the chain has a stronger noise that's proportionate to the speed, which means something isn't right at a particular part of chain. Not in a way as it was before when it needed cleaning and lubrication, but I believe it needs either replacement or/and changing the chain sliders. Which I'll do when I change the rear sprocket to 40T.

But still, I'll check the speed with and without the limiter. And when I do, I'll try to check if few times in few days, see if there will be any change after the wires get disconnected.
BTW, I might try to disconnect not just the blue/white wire you pointed, but the other blue/white one as well, and see how it goes.

But hey, we have to be realistic - this is only a 200 cc bike. With Kiirus ECU it makes close to 28 hp. Today I went with a friend to buy FZ, which makes 14 hp. Double the difference for a bike of same weight.
Some reviewers couldn't go higher than 160 kmh with D390. And we're going 145, 150 kmh with just a sprocket change.
If we can do 150 kmh while keeping a very good acceleration with only a custom ECU remap and sprocket change, then that would be quite something! I'd be happy. And it would be possible to occasionally reach 155 kmh, maybe even 160 kmh with ECU remap and 38T, 39T or 40T sprocket.

And let's not forget that this is Duke speedo, which is very accurate. Overdrive guys measured Duke 390 going at 168.5 kmh true speed while showing 172 kmh on speedo. That's only 2% difference. Other bikes have much higher error margin, so 150 kmh on Duke would be 160 kmh on other bikes. That Malaysian video of Duke 200 going 168 kmh would show as 180 kmh on other bikes.
That's quite something for a 200 cc bike! Happy to own one!

Re: KTM 200 Duke

Ok one thing i want to say is i am definitely happy to own this 200 cc race breed bike no doubts about it and like you said each and every kph extra you achieve over the stock one and getting it almost close to a 390 top speed is i would call a great achievement and agree to every bit of what you mentioned

About Abhishek from Kiirus not open about talking about speed limiter or he being busy with car remaps is totally understandable and i am not complaining and i have no reason to like i mentioned earlier its just my talk that i put across and nothing more about it

Yes Vikram from Motozone might be a good approach to talk to !!

Get your bike ready and then test because at high speeds even a small bolt or nut snaps off it will create a big problem so get everything checked and only then try...

Keep those Duke's Revving !!

Re: KTM 200 Duke

Nope @Chethan Shivakumar has made it clear in the his post above that the ECU re-learns about the void and after 2 -3 runs you are back to square one. Hence, the suggestion.


* Mate on what basis have you come to the figure of 28 bhp??
* Is 28 bhp at the crank or at the wheel??
* The stock bike produces 25 bhp at the crank but at the wheel owing to transmission losses, the actual bhps will be far lesser.
* Is there a proper Dyno run to confirm what you feel is the performance figure achieved??

Please do bear in mind that without a proper dyno run the claims made by various tuning houses are just claims and nothing else. If you have checked out my hot roding thread, at a later stage when the dyno is available locally, i will be getting a lie detection test done soon to see what are the actual nos. been thrown at the rear wheel compared to the estimated bhp generation.

Cheers,

Re: KTM 200 Duke

One of my buddy's duke 200 was advised to change the fuel pump,they said its damaged by low fuel grade and only high octane petrol must be used
As given in the owners manual.do anyone face this problem??currently using bharath petroleum normal fuel and high octane petrol is not available here.do the duke 200 really need high octane petrol,since its compression ratio is 11.3?

Re: KTM 200 Duke

I have been using normal RON 91 from Bharat Petroleum without any problems for almost a year. And I refuel with Speed RON 91 again from Bharat Petroleum once a month due to it's Injector (and other internals) cleaning properties. And also, even in the manual that you are holding it says RON 91 and Bharat Petroleum and others offers RON 91 petrol as a standard.

Re: KTM 200 Duke


Great find Mate!!!!As Serge said, you are the MAN. I too think on the same lines. I think there could be lot more than what meets the eye. I mean we may just be scratching the surface.

I agree with you completely, D200 ECU is one smart Alec. It figures out a way to keep us below 137.

However, if by going for 40 Teeth sprocket or lesser, wouldn't the limiter still cut in?

Whats the point in going for smaller sprocket, where you would be sacrificing on the acceleration?

Serge, please do a speed run with your stock sprocket and MRA windscreen. Want to know if thats any better before I place the order.

Shiv, regarding 12000 rpm on Motozones ECU, he has conditions applied for that. He would open up till 12000 rpm, if you go with his Head work and other mods for the Duke.

I might try that, however, as I told you before, I am looking for a used D200 for 80k to try the mods. My current bike would only get wind screen and Engine ICE, and thats the end for it.

Re: KTM 200 Duke

Bro, Bi-Xenon is a single projector meant for both high and low beam without sacrificing the dipper. the other type would use a seperate projector for high beam and low beam. Like in p2220 the low beam uses a simple projector and high beam uses a parabolic reflector without any projector. You could have the same setup or a setup where you have two projector lamps(220 uses only 1 projector for low beam to may be keep the cost down), one for high beam and the other for low beam. The easier solution compared to this setup is the bi-xenon projectors.

A bi-xenon has a small motor built in which adjusts the bulbs location to be able to give you a high beam and a low beam from a single projector lens(Its like shifting the source of the light with respect to the position of the lens to get a desired beam from a single projector)

Hope it clears out the projector concept.

Re: KTM 200 Duke

Well the 40T would make sense if and only if the speed governor is removed otherwise the speed will cut off @ 137 kmph. Regardless, As i have mentioned earlier i personally wouldn't like an engine to be running at peak rpms for a very long time as it will increase the wear and tear of the engine internals. Whether you opt for future mods or not that is purely your call.

Again as mentioned in one of my earlier posts, I feel one should try out all the other options (Sprockets mods, rev limiter being removed and may be ECU remap) first before jumping into the stage of playing around with the engine internals. That way once, all the options have been exhausted then as a next step for hot roding it would make sense to open up the engine and may be look at head porting and cam profile changes.


Cheers,

Re: KTM 200 Duke

Well the reason i like the 40T is coz of the speeds i can stretch in each gear
1 - 44(41), 2 - 67(60), 3 - 88(80), 4 - 110(101), 5 - 130(120), 6 - 135(135)
Even if i use the 40T i ll be much quicker in comparison to a 42T or 43T plus i ll be reaching 130 in 5th gear at ease without much effort where as in the 43T post 123 it takes forever kinds to hit 130 and more than a quick 130 where else can you do much higher speeds in India. Plus ur engine is much relaxed compared to 43T and you wont feel out of breath at any time

Not Necessarily Shv18 because using the 40T you ll actually be more quicker as you get those 10-15kph extra in each gear and explained above. I dont think i want to go for a engine mod my next and final mod will only be a ECU remap and with that alone i am pretty confident that i can attain close to 155+ with my 40T sprockets and i dont think i want to push beyond that. Coming to your point of engine wear and tear at high RPM's i agree but come on who will be ripping every energy out of the bike every time you ride, sensible people know how to keep their engines happy and yet rev once in a while to extract the best performance unlike the manic's