Re: engine braking

Congrats on completing the trip safe and sound! You can now call yourself a tourer. ;-)

Re: engine braking

I used to ride a Splendor before i got an R15. The brakes on it had no feel, no feedback, poor stopping power and it took all four fingers on the lever to get it to stop (on R15 i use just one). So your statement holds true at least for some Indian commuter bikes with drum brakes.

Everyone uses some engine braking for sure but the difference is in the 'intent': whether one uses engine braking to slow down the bike or not (instead of relying on the brakes).
Engine braking is fine if one is riding at a relaxed/lazy commuter pace. But for spirited riding - especially on a sports bike - engine braking is not used to actually slow down the bike. The brakes can shed speed quickly, precisely and smoothly.
(FYI there are some differences in how the front/rear brake or engine braking affects things like weight transfer, suspension and traction but that's beyond the scope of the discussion)

Re: engine braking

Engine braking is the mainstay of the race track . It works in all 4-stroke petrol engined vehicles both motorcycles or cars etc etc . So it's got nothing to do with how or what you ride .
As I said , I am sure that you are using it daily too , despite the excellent R15 discs . Unless you habitually pull in the clutch lever to disengage the engine while slowing down ( that shall actually speed you up instead ) , or you shift to neutral while slowing down ( very unlikely ) - you are using the engine as brake as you smoothly cut the throttle down .... then applying the brake levers . Think about it and you'll figure this out yourself .

And the splendor's brakes aren't that bad either , if you maintan them well . Well , without maintenance all braking systems shall deteriorate like that . Maybe you can try what I do once every year after the monsoons are gone - http://www.xbhp.com/talkies/motorcyc...tml#post887366 . A single finger is all you'll ever need to bring you to standstill in a jiffy .

Re: engine braking

Engine is not a brake but it acts as one... the engine helps in acceleration but why can't the action that is caused while decelerating called as engine braking? And I have a question too, what is the action that a decelerating engine without engaging the clutch called which brings down the speed of a bike??

Re: engine braking

i humbly disagree.
I'll take one point as an example: "you are using the engine as brake as you smoothly cut the throttle down .... then applying the brake levers"
Nope, i close the throtlle off instantly and onto the brakes at almost the same time. The reason is that just before applying the brakes the bike is travelling at the maximum speed, so if u delay the throttle to brake transition it increases stopping distance significantly. For reference a motogp rider will go from full throttle to brakes in less than 150ms.
I can demonstrate to you conclusively everything i have said so far but it can't be done on a discussion forum its got to be in person on a real bike.

Re: engine braking

Long post please read calmly.

Too many views here. i think its better to say "what i do" rather saying "what you should do". let people say "what i do" and discuss that most common technique. ofcourse there has to be one single correct answer but that holds good to ones perspective and the bike he is riding. as far as R15 is concerned its the bike that demands performance, so relying on engine braking is a bad thing. so pull up your socks and learn effective braking and learn the pros and cons of rear and front brakes. it takes few months and few falls to learn. i have done it. fell once. learned. fell 2nd time after 2 years. learned again. tried purposely skidding on dry and wet conditions to know that limitations of the bike. "learn by yourself guys" thats the best you can get out of yourself.

Incident 1: had a FZs. 2months old. a lady walks past me suddenly. i panic brake holding front brake hard and also clutch ( i used to ride activa before). skid on little mud and fell. after that never i fell again.

incident2: its been 1.8 years i have been riding R15. learned braking better on this one. possibly gone on every surface possible on also braked on it. But recently i fell. was doing onyl 10kmph but held front brake out of panic so hard that i lost balance n bike skid. Fell.

incident 3: just 3 days back, overtook a auto just before a left turn. was doing 50kmph but suddenly his guy on pulsar with pillion and no helmet comes on my lane exactly heading to hit me. this time i had kept my mind cool, used both front and rear, little more of front. steered to left and went off. that guy stopped on the road out of panic. this thing has happened to me few times.

ok now coming to the confusing you are having.

"Dude btw you are saying both . previous quote you said do not use engine as a brake and now you say you use it daily" - Yes you read it correctly. i said "do not use engine as a brake" implying that do not use engine braking only and forget to use actual brakes. i had different techniques that i try depending on the situation. my aim will be to brake effectively so that i dont hit someone and also not too hard as to i lose balance and fall. so experience really counts here.

During panic brake, use rear first upto 30%, and at the same time squeeze the front brake depending on the distance between you and the place you have to stop. always concentrate on the place to have to stop rather concentrating on he object you are about to hit. (read twist of the wrist fr this). do not forget that the rear wheel is controlling your speed, so if you can control the rear wheel spin then you can control the fish tailing or going off balance. the front controls the stopping speed and balances the whole process. if you lose the front then you lose the balance and you will fall. the front will guide you where you wanna go so be cautious. and do not forget the shift in weight to the front which causes the rear to lock up. so always maintain the pressure you put on the rear brake lever.

so in short: 1.press rear first and press front brake to half its power (both at same time also shifting down 2 gears and leaving the clutch where engine braking plays its role)
2. now depending on the distance available steer to the place you can go to. if you dont have have that much distance then gently press the front more til you stop.

Problem here is that all this happens in a matter of few seconds in panic situation. so learn it few times on empty roads keeping the limit that you have to stop.

learn controlling the rear wheel skid. its easier if you can get in touch with a stunter. they know better braking.

The most important of all "Keep your mind CALM" this really helps you to get out of even that most difficult place.

Re: engine braking

Ya I understood. But the problem is I squeezed the rear brake so hard in panic. So am afraid to touch the rear lever during panic. Can control my hands better than my leg. Got to learn in empty road.

Re: engine braking

Yah . It is important that we learn and keep our braking technique in good practice under all practical road , traffic and weather conditions . When we'll really need it , I can assure you that there shall be no time to think about it .

When you cut the throttle down the wheel has to act against the compression inside the engine . It is a strong hydraulic force - try to compress a medical syringe with it's needle end closed - you'll get the idea . This is the force that gradually slows down the vehicle . Since it does not act by friction ( unlike the wheel brakes ) it is very sure , smooth and does not cause any jarring or vibrations or noise or heat . This is called engine brake .

Yes you are right , but you are not pulling in the clutch lever simultaneously with applying the brakes , are you ? Then the engine brake action is very much present , along with the wheel brakes you apply consiously . Infact you can use all 3 brakes together like this for quick stopping - and thats what my bike's manual says too . Whenever I have really needed that I haven't been able to recall later how much percent of what brake I used - was too glad to have just saved my skin ( and bones ) just in the nick of time .

Don't fret - I always read the whole of all your posts , usually twice . I endorse you method wholeheartedly . Effective braking should become an habit - nowadays I do press the right things on the bike even when I am in panic .

You'll become unstable and lose control ( possibly fall , like you said ) , if you pull in the clutch lever while braking hard . That is because by pulling the clutch you disengage the engine and it's excellent braking action .

Even for slowing down ( not a sudden stop ) from a distance , you can leave the clutch alone and just cut throttle slowly with maybe a few touches on the brake lever/pedal , i.e use the engine brake . I usually do that when I see a red signal or traffic clot from a distance etc daily riding situations . Sometimes if you need to shift down a gear or two to match the engine's rpm to the wheel - do that . Particularly when comming down from a bridge or flyover etc downward incline , I never touch the clutch or brakes and rely solely on the engine brake . At that time the engine is basically working against downward gravitational acceleration - that is trying to speed up the bike . As the engine's braking action comes to play you can hear it - the engine sound shall change . You can also quickly re-apply ( increase ) throttle during the engine braking , to speed up and take off again if the road clears up for you too . Try it and see .

Re: engine braking

1000% true pinakiji , i learnt this method from shoeb and other members and have been using it ever since, it has cut down my brake usage at stops and breakers by 50-60% . This reduced clutch usage as i used to pull in at every stop or turn , which increased fuel efficiency too now . This engine braking is very much recommended during run in (debatable) as it allows proper bedding of piston and block

Re: engine braking

I don't think its that straightforward because while its true that compression braking is trying to slow down the bike but when u are hard on the brakes it could also be trying to "speed up" the bike. Perhaps that is why stopping distances are (marginally) shorter with the clutch pulled in while braking.
Anyway, this can go on ad-nauseum...

Note: My advice to everyone reading these posts (including mine) is that its best not to learn about riding from what you read on a forum, because just one wrong advice can get you into trouble on the street.
The best way to learn is by joining a riding school or learning from an experienced and competant rider (rare) on a real bike. When neither is available then good books are your best bet and even then you are on your own.

Re: engine braking

another long post hehe.

as i mentioned before, under hard/sudden brakes (but not panic situation), i sometimes (well most times) use only the front exclusively and sometimes i use a combination of front and rear, and the combination i use is not fixed...and while i never apply too much rear and so far have not experienced the rear wheel lock up (except a little bit once or twice on kachha road done intentionally at slow speeds to see where the limit of rear lockup was on such a road), precisely how much of rear i am applying along with the front depends mostly on firstly precisely how much feedback of the road grip i am getting/feeling, and secondly how important do i think it is to even use much of rear anyway in the given situation, meaning how confident i am on the appropriate (not necessarily full force) use of the front in the given situation and still come out on top with a good deal of safety margin from the object that i am trying to stop my bike from hitting or getting too damn near....whenever i have applied the rear quite strongly (not applying the lever strongly at once, but starting from a good deal of force and then gradually strengthening it even more), it has always been from a high speed on a dry and non-dusty road which offered a killer grip that i had full confidence in the rear not locking up (the gradual increase sure gives the advantage to judge the approach towards the tendency to lock up if any)...the only times i have used the rear while braking from a slow or moderate speed is when i am in almost entirely gripless conditions such as a very dusty or very muddy road and in such a case i use zero to minimal front (applied very gradually) and a gradually increasing amount of rear, anticipating that even an instant of front locking up on such a road would most certainly lead to me crashing while it's much more manageable (and also arguably fun ) if the rear at all starts skidding a bit...

i believe it's very very important to learn/practice/develop-instinct/sharpen-already-existing-instinct/etc to effectively and precisely brake in a gradually increasing manner starting from an almost zero amount of braking force, no matter what what conditions and speeds you are on...if for nothing else, at least to get a good feel (and develop braking instinct based on that) of your bike's brakes' precise behaviour and performance...this skill/instinct (of the feel of the brakes' performance at all ranges of force applied on the levers) developed would be particularly valuable in questionable conditions such as leaned over mid corner or corner entry, or on roads lacking grip (wet and muddy or dusty or whatever)... it's as much important to be good at gradually managing braking power from zero up as it is to be good at hard braking...i believe it also helps in developing hard braking skills and panic braking instincts...

so far whenever i had to panic (or almost panic) brake, my natural instinct always made me apply only the front brake (fortunately (but also a due credit to my instinct so far) have not screwed that up so far because never applied it too much at once) and not nearly at full force that it's capable of...all the damningly serious instances of real panic braking that i have had so far were from massive speeds, and on dry as well as wet roads...in all those cases, one great accident-saving thing that my instinct made me do was not just apply the front but simultaneously (and spontaneously) directing my bike a slight angle away from the person who i might have hit if not for the slight direction change...all those times i was in massive speeds (95, 125 in two specially noteworthy panicky situations, the latter 125 kmph one just yesterday on the wet road) and no more than like 10 meters or so from those people at the moment that they decided to cross the road and come in my way at the last minute ignorant of the habit of looking both ways before crossing the road (presumably they cant hear the roar of a speeding bike to alert themselves of or the sounds of the horns that i anyway keep on buzzing every now and then for the people to take note of)...if not for those spontaneous changes of direction slightly, no amount of braking power known to man could have stopped me from hitting them from such speeds over a distance of 10 or so meters..not boasting or implying that only i have this kickass instinct, just saying the importance of instincts in general and the practice of not just applying full force of brakes at once..

btw my habit of pulling in the left lever from riding a scooty for 10 years has still not gone..has reduced appreciably, but still sometimes i pull the clutch in some sudden braking situations for no reason but old habit kicking in :\
and another btw, i use 2 fingers for the front brake lever..i believe that's also an important factor that comes to play for those who also use 2 fingers (most sport-riders i would assume) as opposed to 4 which could much more easily lock the front by not giving that sufficient fraction of a second more to the forks to load the front tyre sufficiently..

the phenomenon, techniques and art of braking is so awesome even just to write posts on

Re: engine braking

Engine breaking,
i use "engine breaking" for slowing down for traffic signals. from 100kph and 6th gear, i will bring it down to 20-30 in 2nd gear just by slowly downshifting in intervals.
We are using fuel for attaining momentum(or speed) and when we use breaks it is wasted. less brakes more fuel efficient you are.

Also used When ripping and going fast, there are situations\corners where you want to slow down a little but not too much.(eg from 100 to 90kmph)

Re: engine braking

Exactly..thank god engine braking exists..

Re: engine braking

chill out guys!! the fact that engine is not a brake is true... but however it does slow the vehicle down when the throttle is released! and the use of engine braking the user manual recommends is not slamming your gears and slowing down the vehicle.. it is simply not pulling the clutch which would help u slow down. use of all three brakes is the front, rear and not pulling the clutch.. no where i have come across an expert or an automobile designer saying slam your gears down to stop.. it is just a habit which we have developed..
R15 brakes are efficient enough not down shift while braking.. at least for me

Re: Yamaha YZF-R15 version 2.0

Hello,
I own a R15 2.0 Blue. I have crossed 16000 KM today. I am facing strange issue with my Bike. The Airscoops and the part around it are sinking down. I could clearly see the front fairing coming down. Can any one help me in finding what is the problem? I stay in Bagalore by the way