Re: Hero Karizma ZMR (2014 version)

The tragic tale of My bike's Bypass Surgery
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I had some issues with my bike's Engine:


1) Reduced Pick-up
2) Mileage dropped to 30kmpl
3) Over heating
4) Rough and Noisy
5) a typical tin can knocking sound between 3500-4000 rpm when accelerated sharply


I went to Phoenix Madhapur to get it sorted. There I met a senior mechanic named Mr.K (let's keep it that way).
He told me that the engine must be opened up and then they could find a possible answer. I hesitantly agreed to what he said and left my bike for the dreaded by-pass surgery. The mechanic showed me few engine parts (which were totally alien to me then) and said that these were bend by operating at high temperatures and pressure caused due to adulterated petrol. He asked me to change the fuel station.


2 Days later, I got my bike. As soon I pressed the ignition, the sound of the engine made me worry. It wasn't how I expected. My own bike felt like a stranger. It was like an un-tuned guitar, no rhythm at all. Also, there was a hissing sound. The mechanic Mr. K told that It's a chain sound which resides inside the engine and was perfectly fine, would go away after some days. The engine was still rough and it was not refined. I felt lot's of jerks while shifting gears or riding slow in traffic. I couldn't understand the reason behind this new change. Mr. K told me that my old engine was having problem hence the torque was less and now this uber torquey engine is causing these jerks. I was not convinced. I told all these to Ravi@17Bhp. Ravi anna inspected my bike and felt a little drop in pick-up but no major issues. He said that the bike was just out of the service centre and only the owner could feel subtle changes. I was very tensed and worried a lot about my new bike. He calmed me and advised me to be patient and wait for the right moment.


Ravi anna however found out from the invoice that the two parts which were supposed to be new for increasing the power output to 20 BHP: Cam Shaft and Piston were of the old zmr. Later, I read on this very own thread about refinement of engines and how the rubber-band/jerk effect was reduced due to the changes in cam shaft and piston. We however waited for the problem to peak.


Days passed and the bike got more rough. All the symptoms were back again. I went to Mr. K for check-up. He rubbished my claims and said that the chain had become saggy and such similar petty reasons.He advised me not to use MOTUL's CHAIN LUBE SPRAY and he thought that it was the main reason behind my chain behaving abnormally. He advised me to use a ANTI-RUST liquid(from local hardware stores) as chain lube, he felt that It would make my chain smooth(My frustration was at peaks).Out of confusion over what to do, I used to leave my chain dry for days.


The last time when Divya Sharan was supposed to test ride my bike, fate restricted him. This time around, my grumpy engine made him wary. When Ravi anna tested my bike, the problem was relatively very new and he couldn't hear that typical tin can sound but It was clearly audible after 2 months when Divya bhai rode it. He showed me how my bike used to vibrate in just neutral. Now, it was time to act.


I went straight to Mr.K and asked him about the "Cam Shaft and Piston" being changed from old zmr to 2014 model. He denied having any info and confessed that he had put what his inventory guy provided him with.


I enquired from two other ASC's about the parts and found out them to be different. These two ASC's were pretty sure that the physical dimensions also must have changed than only part number.


I again went to Phoenix Madhapur to have a chat with the manager. Manager Mr. Raju who usually is a polite guy went into defensive mode and blatantly said that the part is same physically and only part number is different. He went on to say that this was done when Hero Honda Became Hero.


Even the Mechanic who's been to HERO training for new ZMRs denied of any physical changes in the new part. The Managed said that if there is a problem with the engine he would help but said that my claim was not correct. I requested him to verify with HERO but refused saying what his inventory guys and mechanics are telling is right. I told him that I would complain to HERO.


I made a complaint in the HERO's Website. The Manager Mr. Raju is a polite guy and took care of my service requests to priority in past. So, without making un-necessary comments over him or his mechanics I posted my problem and asked for help. I didn't get any response for 3 weeks. I posted the same complaint again and this time I got a call immediately from the Manager. I refused his invitation to come over to have a discussion as I had already discussed everything with him. I said that I wanted a reply from hero about the parts.


After sometime I got a call from The Regional Service Head Mr.Naveen. He requested me to come to Phoenix the next week when he would come there for his scheduled visit. He checked the invoice, new and old parts and browsed though some of his resources. He stated that the parts were indeed changed physically and assured for a priority fix. I agreed to his request of getting it done at Phoenix itself. But I wanted the second chance to be fruitful and asked the manager to open the engine in front of me. I compared the old and new parts and have attached few pics here. It was all said that there is a minor yet effective difference between the two parts, but I was not very sure what had changed. Mr.K didn't help me in differentiating them either. The mechanic who undertook the job this time Mr.M however showed that the piston had deeper carvings/grooves or whatever it is called. The Cam shaft lobes had minor difference in lengths. These claims were verified by Ravi Anna's info later. I am yet to show him the pics and I am sure he would find the precise difference soon. I have attached the pics here but I don't know whether the changes are visible in these pics or not.


Mr. M also pointed out a thing which Ravi anna later told me that was a major blunder by Mr. K : He didn't pack the chamber with gasket. Now, that was the reason for such strange engine sound. I am attaching both the invoices for your reference.


23rd evening, got the engine repaired and when I pushed the ignition button again, the spark actually passed through my body: The Sweet Engine music was back again (at least for now). But when I sat on it and held the handle, I felt the rhythm was slow, the engine beating was slower than usual. I test rode it and boy oh boy, the rubber-band effect was gone, whoosh!!... sigh of relief... just for a moment and I heard it... - "typical tin can knocking sound between 3500-4000 rpm when accelerated sharply"...


No, Not again...the engine was dismantled twice and refitted with major changes and yet I hear the dreaded sound, why? I rushed back to Mr. M. He came for the ride and explained that he has kept the valves loose for the new engine parts to settle and assured me that he would adjust them after 10 days when the sound will be gone. I asked him that if the problem was that simple then why would Mr.K didn't know? He said, "sabke paas woh talent nahi hota sir - every one don't have that talent, sir.


Few positives:
1) The engine feels at home, the sound is rhythmic though the beating is slow (probably because of loose valves)
2) The rubber-band effect is gone
3) Nice pick-up
4) It's again smooth in traffic as it was when I bought it.
5) The body vibes in neutral are not there.
5) We have a probable solution for the tin can sound.


So, I would eagerly wait for those 10 days do get over and then I would feel contended.


Please have a nice look at the pics of the parts and the two invoices and check if all's ok. You never know!!!!

FIRST REPAIR INVOICE


CURRENT REPAIR INVOICE


The Cam shaft and Piston respectively:

Re: Hero Karizma ZMR (2014 version)


The SVC mechanic needs to be kicked in the ass with steel toe boots. Even the manager.

From the photos it can be clearly deduced the spares and different.

As for the cam shaft the difference are:-
1. The cam has more lift and also the dwell angle is slightly different. Also if you look closely the old camshaft has thicker shaft and mounting for sprocket because it is designed for old flat head rocker arms while new one is designed for roller arms.

2. The small protrusion which hold the timing sprocket on th camshaft is smaller than the old model. This means the timing chain will be moving at an angle as compared to the new model which would be causing roughness and elasticity in revving ability.


And as for the Piston the differences are:-

1. The new piston has raised crown which indicates that it is made for high compression. Also the cut off for valves is larger for more movement of valves due to high lift camshaft. Moreover the old piston crown is flat while new one has raised crwn.

2. If you look closely the second ring groove in new model piston is thicker. So the ring must be thicker. This has been done to retain more compression in head and also to prevent blow by due to high compression.Moreover second compressor rings serve as scraper ring and is an important ring than even the top ring.



These are the differences i noticed from photos, anything else i can say only by visually inspecting the parts.

I do not what kind of duffers are there in Showroom.

Once i had fitted splendor piston in Joy for experimental basis and it seized in 15k kms.

So like the saying goes:-" Jiska kaam jisko saaje, aur kare to dholak baaje".

So company has tested which parts are for which. Any deviation will create problem.

Its because the fueling, ignition timing, valve timings all are matched with each other. Any deviation in one without changing other will create huge problems.

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The SVC mechanic needs to be kicked in the ass with steel toe boots. Even the manager.

From the photos it can be clearly deduced the spares and different.

As for the cam shaft the difference are:-
1. The cam has more lift and also the dwell angle is slightly different. Also if you look closely the old camshaft has thicker shaft and mounting for sprocket because it is designed for old flat head rocker arms while new one is designed for roller arms.

2. The small protrusion which hold the timing sprocket on th camshaft is smaller than the old model. This means the timing chain will be moving at an angle as compared to the new model which would be causing roughness and elasticity in revving ability.


And as for the Piston the differences are:-

1. The new piston has raised crown which indicates that it is made for high compression. Also the cut off for valves is larger for more movement of valves due to high lift camshaft. Moreover the old piston crown is flat while new one has raised crwn.

2. If you look closely the second ring groove in new model piston is thicker. So the ring must be thicker. This has been done to retain more compression in head and also to prevent blow by due to high compression.Moreover second compressor rings serve as scraper ring and is an important ring than even the top ring.



These are the differences i noticed from photos, anything else i can say only by visually inspecting the parts.

I do not what kind of duffers are there in Showroom.

Once i had fitted splendor piston in Joy for experimental basis and it seized in 15k kms.

So like the saying goes:-" Jiska kaam jisko saaje, aur kare to dholak baaje".

So company has tested which parts are for which. Any deviation will create problem.

Its because the fueling, ignition timing, valve timings all are matched with each other. Any deviation in one without changing other will create huge problems.

Re: Hero Karizma ZMR (2014 version)

Srikanth, avoid that dreaded SVC from now on. Sabke paas aisa talent nahi hota? What???

Are they running a business or a talent show?

Sent from my phone. Kindly avoid it while riding.

Re: Hero Karizma ZMR (2014 version)

Srikanth.....I had posted many times in ZMA/ZMR threads about the differences in New ZMA.ZMR from the old. The new ones have increased compression ratio enabled by the raised crown, and better Volumetric efficiency(supposed to be) by increasing valve lift. To accommodate the raised crown and increased valve lift, the Piston has deeper Valve recess . Otherwise the bore size and Stroke length are the same,as old.
Your Dealer Phoenix seems to have sent dud guys for training to Hero Motors , and they have come back as duds....Ravi Anna will be able to guide you properly .

Re: Hero Karizma ZMR (2014 version)

Sad to hear that a bike which was once sought out for its reliability has so many issues.

Re: Hero Karizma ZMR (2014 version)

I have been guiding Srikanth right from the beginning and explained everything, regarding the follow-up too. I was the one who raised the question about the old parts being used in the first engine rebuild. I think because of my inputs only Srikanth was able to convince the service people about the difference in parts. Any normal customer would never understand all these things and he would be riding the bike unaware of all these and nodding head to whatever crap the mechanic says.

I was shocked when I got to know that Mr Kiran missed cylinder/head gasket while rebuilding. I couldn't believe it, you can miss a nut, how could he miss cylinder gasket?? This mechanic name is Mr Kiran and he is the one who modified SAI unit by drilling it and inserting a screw of Suresh's Karizma and put dirty engine oil in new silencer. Mr Suresh is still struggling to bring the things to normal level. PHoenix motors should sack this guy immediately. On the other hand, there are two other mechanics in Phoenix motors who does good job like Gafaar. Four xBhpians friends regularly service their ZMRs with them and they were always happy.

AFAIK, Gafar is the mechanic who went for training, and unfortunately Mr Kiran had to work on the engine. Srikanth spoke to me about the engine rebuild just after he committed the bike to Mr Kiran. I immediately told Srikanth to get the bike back from that mechanic.

Anyway, I hope things will settle good for Srikanth now and he would be able to enjoy the bike without any issues.

Re: Hero Karizma ZMR (2014 version)

So Mr K is Mr Kiran!
Also, this dumbo fails to put gaskets. Why is he even in the service business? Why is there no complaint against this guy? Seems there are proofs aplenty against this guy. Why isn't he thrown out?

And I still can't digest the statement - "Ye talent sab ke paas nahi hota!" I mean, WTF!

Re: Hero Karizma ZMR (2014 version)

Sad to see this incident. Has Hero messed up the 2014 Karizma siblings or is it only the 2014 ZMRs facing this sort of issue. I would have lost my temper and might have even sued Hero if the same had happened in my case..

Hero has some of the best mechanics and on the other hand, the worst like in this case.. I am sure a layman would not have understood what is happening. Had Ravi not noticed, I think srikanth's bike and his time would have gone for a toss by those pathetic fools..

BTW, I thought people gain knowledge through experience. How did Mr. K as is in KooMuttai (rotten egg) become a fool and become a senior mechanic??

Re: Hero Karizma ZMR (2014 version)

I feel its more of the dealership/support staff's problem. The product is good. Ok, maybe not as reliable as the older model. Moreover, the 1st iteration of any product has issues.


Sent from my phone. Kindly avoid it while riding.

Re: Hero Karizma ZMR (2014 version)

Ravi Anna...as usual you are the first one to reach out to people in distress in your City.....Happy to be friends with positive people like you and learn...
The problem in the latest ZMA/ZMR is caused more by the High lift cam than the Piston itself....Repeatedly there are reports of high Tappet noise, along with Timing chain elongation.....many owners complaint of engine clicking noise with loss in performance.
With a High lift cam the valve overlap will change,(and become more), and with more overlap, a good amount of Volumetric Efficiency reduction will take place .To counter this,... inlet charge speed ie., the speed at which the Af mix charges into the manifold and combustion chamber Should Also be High...In other Words, Venturi Velocity must be increased.....This had not been done in new ZMA/ZMR engines, and to make matters worse, the AFR is lean set for higher FE.
So to partially offset all this, If the Higher Compression Piston is retained , and older Cam is installed, then the engine will become much better in reliability with less noise...of course the trade off will be loss of approximately 0.6~1 Bhp due to removal of Cam....but at the end of the day if I cannot reliably undertake any journey on the bike, What am I owning it For ?Just my Thought....

Re: Hero Karizma ZMR (2014 version)

Yeh PSR sir, Ravi anna has been very supportive. Without him I couldn't possibly think of this action. Also, he warned me about the new parts and tge trade off. Initially I was ok with it because in the end reliability is more important but the engine problem started again and my mind couldn't think of anything except getting it reverted to the new parts. May be that wasn't the real problem at all. May be not packing the chamber could have effected in loss of compression. Whatever it may be, I was actually having sorrow rides everyday and so, took this action. Also, I had a doubt: I suppose fuel mapping must be different for the new zmr, then If we put the old parts without remapping, would it have any effect?

Sent from my One Plus One!!!

Re: Hero Karizma ZMR (2014 version)

The product is not faulty nor have much complain.

I am yet to hear any complain here in bhubaneswar. The problem is with SVC and ill trained mechanic.

Here only special mechanics in SVC are allowed to do work on engines and newbie are only allowed to do servicing and other small works.
And regarding talent then what special talent is required i do not know as I have opened engine without taking any training.

Even my mechanic opens engine and does works without any training. Its just that while opening you must take note of everything and while fitting back go through the checklist.

Good that original parts were re-initiated which will make the bike as good as new.

The fueling would have been changed with the valves and piston to the correct tune. So without changing fuelling experimentation is a bad idea.

Re: Hero Karizma ZMR (2014 version)

So is this same gasget cylinder causing creek noise from engine. As srikanth explained all those are exist with my ZMR and I am still waiting for engine head assembly parts to arrive. Cam shaft and roker parts are available. I changed these two took for a round found roughness still there with creek noise when you open throttle above 4000rpm. Will it be ok after get engine head assembly changed.

Pls help.

Re: Hero Karizma ZMR (2014 version)

The mechanic said that that creek noise is due to loose tapets and that he will tighten them after 10 days after which the noise will cease to exist. Let's hope that it really does go away.

Sent from my One Plus One!!!

Re: Hero Karizma ZMR (2014 version)

Since I had not heard the Creeking noise ,am unable to even guess what it could be. The head assembly which contains the Valves is the same as old,and so is the Rocker head part, common to both Old and New ZMA-R, and ZMR