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**acs1207** · 06-17-2012, 10:53 AM

Originally posted by psr View Post

Thanks @acs for detailed reply. There does not seem to be any issues so far due to the work you have done..The thud sound cannot be valves touching the piston..because one touch is enough to spoil everything....may be your starter clutch engages late sometimes...just a guess.
It is good to see positive result ,since you took the risk and things have worked out well for you.

Originally posted by ashwinprakas View Post

+ A Million Sir, I've started the habit of pressing the starter for extended periods till the bike idles properly i.e in short I dont let go of the starter untill the bikes stable, be it starting after one day or one week. For a few months the usual cranking sound was heard, but recently after cranking for a few secs there's a thud, and then the cranking starts again, the bike still starts and all, but after cranking for a few secs it pauses with a thud for a micro second and then regains cranking. Guess this supports the wearing out theory.

In my case the 'thud' sound comes first , and only one 'thud' is heard ,then the starter works as normal . It's like "thudrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr" . Since I always use the choke , the engine cranks in the first attempt .
Why do you keep the starter switch pressed ?

**ashwinprakas** · 06-17-2012, 11:31 AM

Originally posted by acs1207 View Post

In my case the 'thud' sound comes first , and only one 'thud' is heard ,then the starter works as normal . It's like "thudrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr" .

Mine's like THUD..CRANK CRANK CRANK..THEN A WEIRD SOUND.. and the RPM drops to 0 and then the process repeats again, after about 30 secs of doing the same the engine starts, no matter how long the bikes been idle it idles like normal. The THUD depends on the bikes mood, sometimes first sometimes in between the sessions.

Since I always use the choke , the engine cranks in the first attempt .

I dont use choke, cause sometimes the choke tends to flood the carb and then will have to start the bike at WOT, which will strain the engine.

Why do you keep the starter switch pressed ?

Tired of pressing it over and over again, its really troublesome and time taking. When its done like this the bike tends to start up sooner. And when done normally the bike does sometime start with a single press but dies when throttle is given.

**Aneesh@4GHz** · 06-17-2012, 07:17 PM

Originally posted by ashwinprakas View Post

I dont let go of the starter untill the bikes stable, be it starting after one day or one week.

Wont it damage the starter motor?

**ashwinprakas** · 06-17-2012, 07:58 PM

Originally posted by Aneesh@4GHz View Post

Wont it damage the starter motor?

Wont damage, just life will be reduced.

**Above_All** · 06-17-2012, 07:59 PM

If any of owner going to open fairing of karizma , please disconnect the speedo meter connector & snap its picture from both sides . As i am preparing the data to post analog to digital meter conversion , have the snaps of that connector after wiring change only . So your snap would be useful in the post to show the look of connector before wiring change .

Originally posted by ashwinprakas View Post

+ A Million Sir, I've started the habit of pressing the starter for extended periods till the bike idles properly i.e in short I dont let go of the starter untill the bikes stable, be it starting after one day or one week. For a few months the usual cranking sound was heard, but recently after cranking for a few secs there's a thud, and then the cranking starts again, the bike still starts and all, but after cranking for a few secs it pauses with a thud for a micro second and then regains cranking. Guess this supports the wearing out theory.

Originally posted by ashwinprakas View Post

Mine's like THUD..CRANK CRANK CRANK..THEN A WEIRD SOUND.. and the RPM drops to 0 and then the process repeats again, after about 30 secs of doing the same the engine starts, no matter how long the bikes been idle it idles like normal. The THUD depends on the bikes mood, sometimes first sometimes in between the sessions.

I think the teeth of bentex are damaged in your bike , which results in slip at that perticular point & due to which you hear the noise THUD or weird or whatever you call it .

According to me the reason for it is your habit of pressing the starter contineously even after bike starts .

Similar kind of problem reported & solved , check for that thread in help me section , IIRC it is by Divya_Saran .

Originally posted by Aneesh@4GHz View Post

Wont it damage the starter motor?

Originally posted by ashwinprakas View Post

Wont damage, just life will be reduced.

If i am correct it is already done to the bentex .

**ashwinprakas** · 06-17-2012, 08:22 PM

Originally posted by Above_All View Post

According to me the reason for it is your habit of pressing the starter contineously even after bike starts ..

I forgot the name, but isnt there a mechanism which prevents the bendix from getting damaged in new bikes, in which the bendix doesnt bite the crank if the crank is in motion(Not talking about the kill mechanism present in Pulsars.).

If i am correct it is already done to the bentex .

I suspect that, cause in my Kiney which lacks the above mentioned mechanism, when starter is pressed when engines running, will make a loud audible sound of a bell ringing, which is audible and louder than the horn. Where as in the ZMA after the engines running, the sound of the starter becomes mild and reduces considerably. Just a thought though.

EDIT:

Heres a quote from Wikipedia which proves my point.

This overrunning-clutch pinion arrangement was phased into use beginning in the early 1960s; before that time, a Bendix drive was used. The Bendix system places the starter drive pinion on a helically cut driveshaft. When the starter motor begins turning, the inertia of the drive pinion assembly causes it to ride forward on the helix and thus engage with the ring gear. When the engine starts, backdrive from the ring gear causes the drive pinion to exceed the rotative speed of the starter, at which point the drive pinion is forced back down the helical shaft and thus out of mesh with the ring gear.

**acs1207** · 06-17-2012, 10:24 PM

Originally posted by ashwinprakas View Post

Mine's like THUD..CRANK CRANK CRANK..THEN A WEIRD SOUND.. and the RPM drops to 0 and then the process repeats again, after about 30 secs of doing the same the engine starts, no matter how long the bikes been idle it idles like normal. The THUD depends on the bikes mood, sometimes first sometimes in between the sessions.

I dont use choke, cause sometimes the choke tends to flood the carb and then will have to start the bike at WOT, which will strain the engine.
The choke is OE for a reason . You're damaging the starter 'cause it 'may' strain the engine !!

Tired of pressing it over and over again, its really troublesome and time taking. When its done like this the bike tends to start up sooner. And when done normally the bike does sometime start with a single press but dies when throttle is given.
If choke is actuated , the engine won't die !

Originally posted by Aneesh@4GHz View Post

Wont it damage the starter motor?

Originally posted by ashwinprakas View Post

Wont damage, just life will be reduced.

Life being reduced is 'cause it gets damaged to a certain extent .

Originally posted by Above_All View Post

.............................
According to me the reason for it is your habit of pressing the starter contineously even after bike starts .

I think so too ..
answers also in bold/maroon

**psr** · 06-17-2012, 10:58 PM

Bendix system exists only in Cars and not in mass produced 2 wheelers.....Instead it has a slip ring clutch which rotates slowly while starter is working,and whose speed never equals the idle speed of the motor. SO when the motor starts the center shaft of the crank to which the mechanism is attached spins faster than the starter,and hence the starter POWER mechanically disengages.
Holding the starter on for more than 15 seconds leads to deep discharge of battery,heavier CONTINUOUS loading of starter motor and quicker deterioration of it's interior parts like rotor,brush etc.,
The parts manual had been uploaded for people with doubts to see and learn,instead of assuming incorrect info....still some of us would rather post and think later, than learn and post...
Note part... esp 3

**ashwinprakas** · 06-17-2012, 11:05 PM

Originally posted by psr View Post

Bendix system exists only in Cars and not in mass produced 2 wheelers.....Instead it has a slip ring clutch which rotates slowly while starter is working,and whose speed never equals the idle speed of the motor. SO when the motor starts the center shaft of the crank to which the mechanism is attached spins faster than the starter,and hence the starter POWER mechanically disengages.
Holding the starter on for more than 15 seconds leads to deep discharge of battery,heavier CONTINUOUS loading of starter motor and quicker deterioration of it's interior parts like rotor,brush etc.,
The parts manual had been uploaded for people with doubts to see and learn,instead of assuming incorrect info....still some of us would rather post and think later, than learn and post...
Note part... esp 3

Oops sorry then. Assumed the ZMA also has it cause when my Kineys starter failed the mech said the bendix was to blame.

And sir, the disengaging part is the mechanism I was talking about, I remember Sarin bro explaining it to me, and he used a technical term as well, but I dont remember it.

**Above_All** · 06-17-2012, 11:25 PM

Originally posted by psr View Post

Bendix system exists only in Cars and not in mass produced 2 wheelers.....

psr ji the mouth of starter motor having teeth , which engages with respective part of engine & start it when starter switch is pressed is called as BENTEX by the mechanics here both at ASC & roadside . The same thing of my scooty got damaged before 4/5 years . When i changed the camshaft & rocker on ZMR mechanic disassembled the starter motor which has the same part having teeth & upon asking what it is called even floor incharge of ASC said BENTEX . So i thought there will be same thing in Karizma-R .

**psr** · 06-18-2012, 01:03 AM

Originally posted by Above_All View Post

psr ji the mouth of starter motor having teeth , which engages with respective part of engine & start it when starter switch is pressed is called as BENTEX by the mechanics here both at ASC & roadside . The same thing of my scooty got damaged before 4/5 years . When i changed the camshaft & rocker on ZMR mechanic disassembled the starter motor which has the same part having teeth & upon asking what it is called even floor incharge of ASC said BENTEX . So i thought there will be same thing in Karizma-R .

The mechanics use the term Bendix for the starter auto release mechanism, irrespective of it's configuration....A true Bendix is actually a spring loaded gear which will retract when starter motor spins to engage with the engine flywheel....,AND engine had not started on it's own..the moment the engine starts the higher speed of the engine will throw the starter spring loaded mechanism in to dis engagement,thereby mechanically separating the starter motor from spinning engine's flywheel.

In high power motorcycles a simpler form of the same is used ...here is a picture of a motorcycle "Bendix". is separated condition...

and assembled in position in engine....

You can see the spring behind the second gear...the mechanism is in disengaged condition.

**sibun** · 06-18-2012, 09:17 AM

Usually all scooters use Bendix pinion be it scooty/activa/pleasure e.t.c.
So prior to self in bikes scooty came with Bendix pinion, so mechanic refer to it as Bendix.
Even apache also come with Bendix pinion.
But all hero honda bikes come with chain arrangement with a starter clutch behind the magnet. The same arrangement is used from passion pro to karizma. This is simpler than Bendix and also less maintenance is required.Only the clutch gets worn out and is available at dealership. Usually when the clutch gets worn the starter causes loud noises.The pinion of starter is small and is connected through a small chain to the gear on magnet. The chain looks like timing chain.
The part number for clutch is given in the manual as part No.3 and replacing it will solve the noise problem.
OT- We have a tractor which is used to teel our farm as it is very large. The Bendix pinion for tractor cost Rs.200 but scooty pinion cost Rs. 1200.

**Hackdrag** · 06-18-2012, 12:44 PM

Originally posted by acs1207 View Post

Another DIY . Please do post how it's done in detail , if possible with snaps .
THe ASC is not required for the flasher . A known company's flasher will do . Mine's by a company called Swiss .

The Flasher i made blew up....I have to revise the Circut to more bullet proof one.

Is there any off the shelf solution for this ,I couldn't find a electronic flasher for bike in Bangalore.

The ASC don't have stock on new Splendors electronic flasher.

This some thing i found on eBay. Can i Use this 2 Line 12V flasher on ZMA.

Error Page | eBay

http://www.ebay.in/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180897311471&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:IN:1123

Can anyone please route me to a shop/dealer/asc who sells 2 Line electronic flasher with L connector in bang lore.
Does any other bikes like new splendor has OEM electronic flasher??

**ashwinprakas** · 06-18-2012, 12:55 PM

Originally posted by sibun View Post

scooty pinion cost Rs. 1200.

Spot on! That was the price quoted by the mech for Activa bendix, since the Kiney's bendix was hard to source though it costs only around 400/-.

**acs1207** · 06-18-2012, 09:50 PM

Originally posted by Hackdrag View Post

The Flasher i made blew up....I have to revise the Circut to more bullet proof one.

Did you use LEDs in series or did the resister you use down the voltage to 3-4 volt ? I had connected @ 10 rows of 4 LEDs in series . Four 3 volt LEDs handled the 12 V just fine . But in running , the volt might be shooting up to @ 14.5 or so . That might be why my LED circuit blew .

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